A key fault line in contemporary education is between those who see public schools as foundational to democracy and those who regard them as ineffectual and captive to union interests. In his new book , Jonathan Gyurko sets out to bridge this divide. Jonathan is the president and co-founder of the Association of College and University Educators (ACUE) and previously worked for the New York City school district, the United Federation of Teachers, and the Coalition of Public-Independent Charter 69传媒. I recently had a chance to talk with him about his book and what it means for educators. I hope you find the conversation as illuminating as I did. Here鈥檚 what he had to say.
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Rick: So, Jonathan, the title of your book is Publicization. What do you mean by that?
Jonathan: First, Rick, thanks for bringing attention to my book. In , Getting Education Right, you argue that education isn鈥檛 a 鈥減ublic鈥� or 鈥減rivate鈥� good. It鈥檚 a mix. I couldn鈥檛 agree more. 69传媒 both focus on a family鈥檚 particular interests and advance common aims鈥攖o prepare engaged citizens, productive workers, good neighbors, and stewards of the planet. But the mix isn鈥檛 set. We get to decide. As I show in my book, the past decades have seen a lot of reforms that privilege private interests like choosing a school that鈥檚 鈥渞ight for my child鈥� and various forms of market-inspired privatization. But this puts common purposes at risk鈥攋ust look at our political division, economic inequity, cultural divides, and environmental degradation. Publicization shows how any type of school鈥攄istrict, charter, or independent鈥攃an reset the balance through more democratic governance and operation.
Rick: So, tell me a bit about your experiences in education and how they led you to write this book?
Jonathan: Sure. I started teaching in South Africa right after apartheid. The school, Tiger Kloof, wasn鈥檛 fully public, but it wasn鈥檛 private, either. Teachers, books, and a curriculum were provided by the government. Our students took state tests. However, it operated on private property with supplemental programs managed by a charitable board. After that, I spent many years in New York鈥檚 charter movement as a founder, board member, authorizer, and even union organizer. Seeing the sector from many angles got me thinking: Why not consider a school鈥檚 鈥減ublicness鈥� by what it does instead of its legal status?
Rick: In your eyes, just how public are today鈥檚 public schools, anyway?
Jonathan: If by 鈥減ublic鈥� you mean 鈥渄istrict鈥� schools, then as I write in the book, not very. Here鈥檚 why: In the plainest sense, public goods are nonexcludable and nonrivalrous, like the air we breathe and national defense鈥攚e鈥檙e all equally affected and protected. In contrast, private goods are excludable: When I eat an apple, it鈥檚 all mine. Publicization turns this economic concept into an 鈥渆xclusion test.鈥� When applied to how schools operate, it鈥檚 not pretty. Exclusionary practices exist everywhere. Simply put, these practices make schools less public and more private.
Rick: Where do you think those engaged in the familiar debates may be getting this wrong?
Jonathan: Take district attendance zones and town boundaries. They fail the exclusion test because they bar families from accessing a particular school if they live on the 鈥渨rong鈥� side of a politically determined line. On this measure, open-lottery charters are less exclusionary鈥攎ore public鈥攖han district schools. Another example is school funding, which excludes some students from better-resourced schools when it is tied to local wealth. Curriculum, when made by experts without input from other stakeholders鈥攊ncluding employers, civic leaders, students, and taxpayers鈥攁lso fails the exclusion test. Publicization, by contrast, offers a hopeful vision. By reframing our understanding of what makes any school more publicly purposed, I show how to achieve more of the common aims that schools have historically supported.
Rick: What are some of those common aims?
Jonathan: The book takes as a given several common aims found in American history. Preparing each generation for democratic citizenship has been championed since the Founding Fathers. In the 19th century, Horace Mann and the common school leaders aimed to foster greater social cohesion. In the 20th century, skill development became a priority for economic competitiveness. Note that all three concepts鈥攄emocratic citizenship, social cohesion, and economic competitiveness鈥攁re themselves public goods, in that it鈥檚 hard to isolate oneself from the benefits or failures of any of them. To these I鈥檝e added a fourth: preparation for environmental stewardship. Again, hardly anyone will escape our climate future. Put together with the exclusion test, these aims form my proposed definition of what makes any school more public than private: It produces public goods and doesn鈥檛 exclude stakeholders from participating in educational decisionmaking, displace facts with beliefs, or prevent students from attending.
Rick: You set up 鈥減ublicization鈥� as an alternative to 鈥減rivatization,鈥� and suggested that teacher evaluation and accountability systems are examples of 鈥減rivatization.鈥� I didn鈥檛 quite follow the logic there. After all, these have been adopted in traditional, publicly governed schools and systems after being legislated by democratic leaders. Can you say more?
Jonathan: Again, I encourage readers to think of the 鈥減ublicness鈥� of education by what a school does and not by its legal status. This framing makes room for different types of schools to advance common aims. It also exposes the privatizing practices in 鈥渢raditional鈥� schools. For decades, American policymakers鈥攂oth Republicans and Democrats鈥攔ode an intellectual tide premised on efficiency, markets, and competition鈥攃ollectively, privatization. It鈥檚 what Elizabeth Popp Berman, in , calls an 鈥渆conomic mode,鈥� full of incentive alignment and extrinsic incentives that found their way into education. Examples of this economic paradigm include Race to the Top鈥檚 teacher-evaluation requirements and No Child Left Behind鈥檚 sanctions on schools not meeting adequate yearly progress. Publicization offers an alternative.
Rick: Are you suggesting that attention to efficiency or incentives makes something 鈥減rivate鈥�? Does this mean principals are rejecting the public good when they budget responsibly?
Jonathan: Rick, this feels a little extreme. Of course the prudent use of tax dollars is in our common interest. But efficiency is just one of many competing policy goals, and we need political processes to judge its relative importance. For example, the proliferation of small district schools and charters created inefficient redundancies in school administration and student transportation. But choice advocates鈥攎yself included鈥攆elt the inefficiency was worth it.
Rick: You also call for a new education politics that seeks to 鈥渂roaden the dialogue, by encouraging others to engage, particularly those with divergent views.鈥� That sounds good to me, but I鈥檓 curious how you square this call with your suggestion that proponents of school choice or test-based accountability are engaged in a 鈥減rivatizing鈥� assault on democratic schooling?
Jonathan: Well, my friend, 鈥渁ssault鈥� is your word, but let鈥檚 look at this more closely. I don鈥檛 expect the most ardent supporters of school choice to join the conversation, because pure choice requires no mutual accommodation. You vote with your feet to serve your private interests. That鈥檚 more than an assault on democratically determined schooling. It鈥檚 a threat to collectively reproducing and reimagining the common aims that hold a country together.
Rick: For what it鈥檚 worth, this doesn鈥檛 seem like the kind of respectful, good-faith critique you urge in your book. Plenty of leading proponents of educational choice鈥攊ncluding figures like Howard Fuller, Patrick Wolf, Ashley Berner, Derrell Bradford, and Neal McCluskey鈥攈ave long made the case for expanding parental choice in ways that are very much about citizenship and democracy. It strikes me that you鈥檙e not engaging them in the kind of conversation you鈥檙e calling for. Your take?
Jonathan: Rick, I鈥檝e worked closely on these issues with thought leaders as divergent as Joel Klein, Randi Weingarten, John Chubb, Leo Casey, and others. I鈥檝e learned something from all of them, and Publicization attempts to bridge our field鈥檚 intellectual divides鈥攋ust like this conversation鈥檚 give-and-take. It does require some soul searching on both sides, and we should work with those with whom we disagree to form a new coalition of change makers that both you and I are calling for.
Rick: You argue that 鈥渢he privatization project is premised on control.鈥� But it seems to me that privatization is typically understood to be about market-based reform, in which the goal is to expand options and loosen centralized control. What do you have in mind here?
Jonathan: Just because the hand is invisible doesn鈥檛 mean it鈥檚 not controlling. Think about the assumptions of the 鈥渆conomic mode鈥� that underlie privatization. Performance contracts, in the form of charter schooling and outsourcing to education management organizations, aim to control for the principle-agent problem鈥攊n other words, since it鈥檚 impossible to monitor inputs, these methods of control regulate outcomes. Evaluations based on test scores aim to align incentives around performance鈥攁 better way, it鈥檚 argued, to control teachers鈥� work. As I see it, school reform efforts have become a tired fight between market-based control and centralized regulatory control. Publicization argues for a third, complementary possibility: more democratic control through greater engagement and participation at different levels of decisionmaking.
Rick: Earlier, you mentioned that school funding isn鈥檛 working today. From your perspective, what are we getting wrong with school funding? And what kinds of changes would you like to see?
Jonathan: I simply give no quarter to the argument that schools are sufficiently funded鈥攏ot when Dream Charters, where I spent a decade on the board, spends nearly twice as much per student than federal, state, and local governments spend on traditional district schools. Nor when suburbs choose to spend meaningfully more on schools than rural and urban areas do. Nor when wealthy families willingly pay exorbitant private school tuition. Here鈥檚 a possible change: In 2022, the IRS about $600 billion in owed taxes because of understaffing. That鈥檚 enough to double school funding in about half the states and decouple funding from local wealth. Much greater federal funding would better align fiscal responsibility to common aims that are now of national scope. It strikes me there鈥檚 a national deal to be brokered here鈥攆or any school serving the public good鈥攑articularly when the education of students in a handful of swing counties affects everyone nationwide.
Rick: This response doesn鈥檛 seem to really engage those concerned about how effectively school dollars are spent today, especially given your suggestion that 鈥渆fficiency鈥� is a problematic concept. Given that, what kind of 鈥渄eal鈥� do you have in mind?
Jonathan: 尝别迟鈥檚 not conflate fiscal adequacy with prudent spending. I am not advocating for golden toilets. I would like to see schools that are more conducive to learning. Take our 100-year-old industrial-custodial model of shuffling students from one crowded room to another. Instead, imagine settings designed for small-group collaboration and active learning, equipped with the latest tech, and managed by teachers prepared to develop students鈥� intellectual and emotional capabilities. We鈥檇 get better outcomes, and students鈥� transition to college and work settings wouldn鈥檛 be nearly as jarring. As for a deal, I could see Congress becoming the majority funder of schools, up from today鈥檚 9 percent, with bipartisan support through a transformative increase in funding鈥攐ne that attracts Ivy League grads into education careers 鈥攊f backed by district, charter, and publicly purposed independent schools. That鈥檚 how the Elementary and Secondary Education Act passed in 1965, with support from both district and Catholic school advocates. Why not again?
Rick: You call for 鈥渕utual accountability鈥� as a mechanism to replace the traditional top-down school accountability. In your formulation, 鈥渞esponsibility is vested among stakeholders for what can rightly be considered each鈥檚 respective obligations.鈥� Can you say a bit more? For starters, who are the various stakeholders you have in mind?
Jonathan: It鈥檚 all of us, really: taxpayers, employers, neighbors, educators, families, and students. The trouble is, most stakeholders today are excluded from schooling鈥攅ither by district experts, who insulate themselves to run 鈥渢he one best system鈥濃�攐r by school choice laws, which result in families making school decisions on their own. For example, calculus remains a crowning high school achievement and a ticket to elite colleges鈥攚here students may never use it again鈥攅ven when statistical reasoning and analytical thinking is arguably more valuable and . Now imagine recurring processes for standards and curriculum that actually take employers鈥� needs seriously. Schooling would look different with that kind of collective participation.
Rick: OK, so what does it mean to hold taxpayers or schools of education accountable? And what鈥檚 to stop each group from saying, 鈥淲e did the best we could, but those other folks didn鈥檛 do their part鈥�?
Jonathan: I don鈥檛 think there鈥檚 any need to stop someone from saying, in good faith, 鈥淚 did the best I could, given the circumstances.鈥� It鈥檚 the circumstances that need changing. As for stakeholders doing their part, I write in Publicization that accountability follows legitimacy. When citizens are proud of their schools, businesses get the employees they need, parents perceive what鈥檚 going on as education and not indoctrination, schooling is seen as legitimate, and stakeholders are more willing to uphold their responsibilities.
Rick: Last question: If you had to spotlight one practical tip that educators or education leaders might take from Publicization, what would it be?
Jonathan: Show up and invite others. Education in a democracy requires participation. It also requires norms and procedures for decisionmaking that feel fair and nonexclusive. But it all starts by showing up and looking around the room to see who鈥檚 not there and bringing them into the conversation. John Stuart Mill鈥檚 famous included the freedom to make our views public and subject to the community鈥檚 judgment. That only works if the community is expected, present, listening, and responding. It only happens if we鈥檙e willing to bring more of our fellow Americans into the community of unforced agreement, as pragmatist philosopher Richard Rorty , including his final summative work, . That鈥檚 how, in a pluralistic democracy, we can collectively decide what it means to flourish and how schools prepare young people for that future. Otherwise, we are educating for authoritarianism鈥攂ased on the exclusionary decisions of experts or the silent, unilateral choices of the market. We can do better, and the country needs us to.
